I am sick of the "I'm a POW" hype

catbox_9 wrote:

gs78 wrote:

Progress sucks!

30 years ago; Complete Games were plentiful; Tiger Stadium was King;

Umpires used outside protectors, wore sportcoats, ties and dress shirts and no instant replay was needed

None of that has anything to do with this issue. While I'd agree that that particular form of progress sucks, actual progress doesn't.

Progress is almost never good

It creates more problems!


Before the internet; You didn't have identity theft, cyber bullying and sexual predators posing as teens to lure young boys

gs78 wrote:

Causes harm to the moral fabric of our society

No more than pornography, PG-13/R-rated films, foul language, etc.

g78 wrote:

Let the Gays go back in the closet

Why? What harm do they cause? While there are exceptions to every rule, sexual minorities are no more harmful than anyone else. Sure, there's gays who belong in jail, but there's plenty of straight people who do, too.

gs78 wrote:

Before the internet; You didn't have identity theft, cyber bullying and sexual predators posing as teens to lure young boys

You could still steal identities - just dig through someone's trash and you can find lots of information. Kids still bullied, just without the internet. Child molesters are nothing new. Prior to the internet they had newsletters.

I'm talking about social progress, but even technological progress is "good". There was a time without electricity, telephones, etc. Is that better?

catbox_9 wrote:

gs78 wrote:

Causes harm to the moral fabric of our society

No more than pornography, PG-13/R-rated films, foul language, etc.

g78 wrote:

Let the Gays go back in the closet

Why? What harm do they cause? While there are exceptions to every rule, sexual minorities are no more harmful than anyone else. Sure, there's gays who belong in jail, but there's plenty of straight people who do, too.

Not according to Pat Robertson;


Gays are very harmful!


Not that I watch the 700 Club that often

I'm probably one of the more conservative one's here, but here's my take on some of the issues at hand....

Gay Marriage - Not exactly in favor of it, but I'm not going to go out of my way to get it stopped. My reasoning? Well...their lifestyle statistically shows a higher percentage of STD's, which insurance companies pay for. Many gays marry (or attempt to) to take advantage of insurance benefits. As the insurance companies pay more...they raise EVERYONE'S premiums. Why on Earth would I want to pay higher insurance costs because 2 guys want to pack each other's fudge? Why should I pay the price? I'm not living the way they do!
(side note) However...what they do in their own beds is their business...not mine...If they wanna blow each others brains out...go for it...just keep me out of the picture.

Death Penalty - I agree with Gs...let the bastards fry...and Shorten the amount of time they have to appeal, and only give 'em 2 chances to appeal....not 7 or 8.

Stem Cells - They're like condoms...use 'em if ya got 'em! LOL

Abortion - I'm touch and go on this one. I am more pro-life than pro-choice, but I do think there should be exceptions to the rules. I can see allowing (even in favor of) abortions in particular circumstances.

Gun Control - Where's my .38 special? I'm gonna need it if I teach in an inner city high school...LOL

catbox_9 wrote:

gs78 wrote:

Before the internet; You didn't have identity theft, cyber bullying and sexual predators posing as teens to lure young boys

You could still steal identities - just dig through someone's trash and you can find lots of information. Kids still bullied, just without the internet. Child molesters are nothing new. Prior to the internet they had newsletters.

I'm talking about social progress, but even technological progress is "good". There was a time without electricity, telephones, etc. Is that better?

It must be;

The Amish people live like that;


Crimes, Homosexuality, Alcohol/Drug Abuse and other social ills are non existent

gs78 wrote:

catbox_9 wrote:

gs78 wrote:

Causes harm to the moral fabric of our society

No more than pornography, PG-13/R-rated films, foul language, etc.

g78 wrote:

Let the Gays go back in the closet

Why? What harm do they cause? While there are exceptions to every rule, sexual minorities are no more harmful than anyone else. Sure, there's gays who belong in jail, but there's plenty of straight people who do, too.

Not according to Pat Robertson;


Gays are very harmful!


Not that I watch the 700 Club that often

Of course he'd say that. Those televangelists are even more harmful. They're the most hypocritical people out there. They're all crooks.

gs78 wrote:

catbox_9 wrote:

gs78 wrote:

Before the internet; You didn't have identity theft, cyber bullying and sexual predators posing as teens to lure young boys

You could still steal identities - just dig through someone's trash and you can find lots of information. Kids still bullied, just without the internet. Child molesters are nothing new. Prior to the internet they had newsletters.

I'm talking about social progress, but even technological progress is "good". There was a time without electricity, telephones, etc. Is that better?

It must be;

The Amish people live like that;


Crimes, Homosexuality, Alcohol/Drug Abuse and other social ills are non existent

If being Amish is the one true faith, why is it that there are only about 227,000 Amish people in the world? Obviously that isn't the solution.

catbox_9 wrote:

gs78 wrote:

catbox_9 wrote:

gs78 wrote:

Causes harm to the moral fabric of our society

No more than pornography, PG-13/R-rated films, foul language, etc.

g78 wrote:

Let the Gays go back in the closet

Why? What harm do they cause? While there are exceptions to every rule, sexual minorities are no more harmful than anyone else. Sure, there's gays who belong in jail, but there's plenty of straight people who do, too.

Not according to Pat Robertson;


Gays are very harmful!


Not that I watch the 700 Club that often

Of course he'd say that. Those televangelists are even more harmful. They're the most hypocritical people out there. They're all crooks.

I should become a televangelists

I could get people to send me money;

Make fun of Gays

And cheat on my wife with hot looking secretaries

catbox_9 wrote:

gs78 wrote:

catbox_9 wrote:

gs78 wrote:

Before the internet; You didn't have identity theft, cyber bullying and sexual predators posing as teens to lure young boys

You could still steal identities - just dig through someone's trash and you can find lots of information. Kids still bullied, just without the internet. Child molesters are nothing new. Prior to the internet they had newsletters.

I'm talking about social progress, but even technological progress is "good". There was a time without electricity, telephones, etc. Is that better?

It must be;

The Amish people live like that;


Crimes, Homosexuality, Alcohol/Drug Abuse and other social ills are non existent

If being Amish is the one true faith, why is it that there are only about 227,000 Amish people in the world? Obviously that isn't the solution.

How about moving to Easter Island?

LMAO Or you could just change your last name to Clinton, run for president, and you can STILL do all of those things!

gs78 wrote:

I should become a televangelists

I could get people to send me money;

Make fun of Gays

And cheat on my wife with hot looking secretaries

That's what they do :haha:

gs78 wrote:

How about moving to Easter Island?

You and Easter Island

catbox_9 wrote:

gs78 wrote:

How about moving to Easter Island?

You and Easter Island

I could become their first Olympic Athlete

In Horse Jumping!

catbox_9 wrote:

gs78 wrote:

I should become a televangelists

I could get people to send me money;

Make fun of Gays

And cheat on my wife with hot looking secretaries

That's what they do :haha:

I should do that!

I probably be good at it, too

gs78 wrote:

catbox_9 wrote:

gs78 wrote:

If we allow the gays and the bigamists to marry;

What's next?

Child Molesters marrying young boys?


Fathers marrying their own daughters

Moms marrying their own sons

It is a slippery slope!

Those are all completely different. Gay marriage and polygamy cause no harm to anyone. Child molesters obviously cause lots of problems and child molestation is illegal. Incest has numerous problems (genetics, etc.) and is also illegal. There is nothing illegal about sexual minorities doing what they do so long as they aren't married - same goes for polygamists.

Causes harm to the moral fabric of our society


Let the Gays go back in the closet

Like Rock Hudson!


Things were much better

Our society has no moral fabric. What are we really going to lose if we let gays marry? How is that hurting anyone. Gay is not contagious, you aren't going to catch it. If you don't like it than don't go to a gay wedding, don't stare when you see them kissing, don't go to a gay bar.

Your logic makes no sense at all. How is two consenting adults that happen to be the same sex marrying even compare slightly to incest and rape? Morality flew out the window along time ago for the USA, so really that's not an argument. We can legalize prostitution, which goes against the bible, thou shalt not commit adultery, but damn if you'll go straight to hell for loving someone.

kharmon wrote:

gs78 wrote:

catbox_9 wrote:

gs78 wrote:

If we allow the gays and the bigamists to marry;

What's next?

Child Molesters marrying young boys?


Fathers marrying their own daughters

Moms marrying their own sons

It is a slippery slope!

Those are all completely different. Gay marriage and polygamy cause no harm to anyone. Child molesters obviously cause lots of problems and child molestation is illegal. Incest has numerous problems (genetics, etc.) and is also illegal. There is nothing illegal about sexual minorities doing what they do so long as they aren't married - same goes for polygamists.

Causes harm to the moral fabric of our society


Let the Gays go back in the closet

Like Rock Hudson!


Things were much better

Our society has no moral fabric. What are we really going to lose if we let gays marry? How is that hurting anyone. Gay is not contagious, you aren't going to catch it. If you don't like it than don't go to a gay wedding, don't stare when you see them kissing, don't go to a gay bar.

Your logic makes no sense at all. How is two consenting adults that happen to be the same sex marrying even compare slightly to incest and rape? Morality flew out the window along time ago for the USA, so really that's not an argument. We can legalize prostitution, which goes against the bible, thou shalt not commit adultery, but damn if you'll go straight to hell for loving someone.

That's what I meant to say, but was too busy writing a movie review to say

This is from further back on the thread, but I won't wear a flag pin either, I find them takky. I also won't stand for the pledge only because it lost it's meaning when the government changed it. Didn't the government make the choice to not take into account the bible when deciding what's right and wrong when they made it illegal to pray in school and to separate church from state? The whole argument about gay marriage being against the bible doesn't have a foot to stand on anymore when it comes to the law. The government lost the fight when they took out "under god".

Speaking of gay marriage being against the bible, the bible isn't really all that clear on that from my understanding. Of course I won't even pretend to be a biblical scholar (I've actually read far more of the Qur'an than the bible although I am not at all Muslim).

Here's what some guy who claims to be a biblical scholar says:

David Hilborn wrote:

It must be granted that direct references to homosexual activity in the Bible are relatively few. However, these more explicit texts belong to a much broader Biblical discourse on creation, love, holiness and human relationships - a discourse which goes to the heart of God’s purpose for humankind

Ohios#1TigerFan wrote:

Well...their lifestyle statistically shows a higher percentage of STD's, which insurance companies pay for. Many gays marry (or attempt to) to take advantage of insurance benefits. As the insurance companies pay more...they raise EVERYONE'S premiums.

If we're going to use that type of logic...

Statistically speaking, diabetics, autistic children, the disabled, etc. are going to cost more money in terms of medical care. Should we execute them? I mean, it worked for the Nazis...

You could say that's different, but not really. People don't choose to be autistic or gay or whatever. Even if you think they do should we execute drunk drivers who injure themselves while driving drunk? That's definitely their fault - much more so than it is a gay person's "fault" for being gay. I suppose we could just get rid of alcohol all together to avoid that last scenario - alcoholics cost more money than non-alcoholics...maybe teetotalism is the way to go?
Obviously I don't believe any of that last bit of nonsense. Just because someone is statistically more likely to be a certain way or cost more money doesn't mean we should punish everyone.

Continuing with insurance....if two gay people have their own insurance what's it matter if they're married. Are we going to stop issuing insurance to sexual minorities? And what about super poor non-gay people. If they get injured and require urgent medical care but have no insurance they'll receive care in the emergency room. Should we stop treating people without insurance? After all they're costing us money, too. Maybe we should just let them die?

kharmon wrote:

Gay is not contagious, you aren't going to catch it....

Don't tell that to a lot of people! The problem with this country is there's so much xenophobia. There are lots of nations that allow gay marriage and guess what - it's not a slippery slope...the people who live in those nations are no more likely to engage in bestiality, incest, or child molestation. In fact, some of the highest child molestation rates in the world are here.

Another fear is gay couples will turn innocent children gay despite the fact that numerous studies have concluded that even when children are raised by gay parents they're no more likely to turn out gay than children raised by straight parents (Kilpatrick, Smith, & Roy, 1981 ; Golombok, Spencer, & Rutte, 1983 ; Green, Mandel, Hotveldt, Gray, & Smith, 1986 ; Patterson, 2002 ; Patterson & Hastings, 2007)....see, that's 5 studies right there!

kharmon wrote:

gs78 wrote:

catbox_9 wrote:

gs78 wrote:

If we allow the gays and the bigamists to marry;

What's next?

Child Molesters marrying young boys?


Fathers marrying their own daughters

Moms marrying their own sons

It is a slippery slope!

Those are all completely different. Gay marriage and polygamy cause no harm to anyone. Child molesters obviously cause lots of problems and child molestation is illegal. Incest has numerous problems (genetics, etc.) and is also illegal. There is nothing illegal about sexual minorities doing what they do so long as they aren't married - same goes for polygamists.

Causes harm to the moral fabric of our society


Let the Gays go back in the closet

Like Rock Hudson!


Things were much better

Our society has no moral fabric. What are we really going to lose if we let gays marry? How is that hurting anyone. Gay is not contagious, you aren't going to catch it. If you don't like it than don't go to a gay wedding, don't stare when you see them kissing, don't go to a gay bar.

Your logic makes no sense at all. How is two consenting adults that happen to be the same sex marrying even compare slightly to incest and rape? Morality flew out the window along time ago for the USA, so really that's not an argument. We can legalize prostitution, which goes against the bible, thou shalt not commit adultery, but damn if you'll go straight to hell for loving someone.

Prostitution ain't legal in Michigan

Morality went out because Americans let it happen.

Now! I am not saying we have to censor stuff!

But why is it more people vote for crap on American Idol that political elections?

gs78 wrote:

But why is it more people vote for crap on American Idol that political elections?

People of any age can vote for that show whereas they have to be 18 year old US citizens and non-felons to vote.

You can vote as many times as you want on American Idol whereas you get just one vote in Presidential elections.

Some of my thoughts...

Gay Marriage: First off, I think this is unnatural and very disgusting, but that's only because I'm straight. I agree with gs in that a "marriage" is defined as between a man and a woman and the government doesn't have the power to change it. I have no problem what 2 men and 2 woman do behind closed doors, that's none of my business. However, I don't want the government to legalize some sort of union between them because people would take advantage of it. There will be no stopping 2 ladies or 2 men to legally "unite" just so the other one could have health care. There is already enough of that going on between a man and a woman, why encourage more of it? It's only going to hurt everyone else by raising the rates to accommodate these people.

Abortion: I agree mostly with John Kerry on this. I am totally against abortion, but I don't think the government should have a say in it. Whether or not the woman had a right to have sex (I talking about rape here), if the woman is healthy enough to give birth, she should. If the woman doesn't want to keep the baby, there's always adoption. If someone can get charged with double murder for killing a pregnant woman, than I think a woman should get charged with murder for killing her baby. The only way I'm in favor of killing the baby is if the woman isn't healthy enough to give birth and is in danger of losing her life. There are a lot of woman who aren't fortunate to have kids, yet a lady accidentally gets pregnant and doesn't want the baby, so she kills it? Very selfish act if you ask me.

Stem Cells: Ironically, I'm in favor of stem cell research. Like I said, I don't think the government should have a say in abortion, so if the decision is already made and the child is aborted, then I say go ahead and research (it's not doing any good in a garbage can). The reason the woman got pregnant was not to do the research (that I would oppose).

bobrob2004 wrote:

Abortion: ...

Did that make you pro or against abortion in cases of rape/incest?

catbox_9 wrote:

bobrob2004 wrote:

Abortion: ...

Did that make you pro or against abortion in cases of rape/incest?

Against.

bobrob2004 wrote:

catbox_9 wrote:

bobrob2004 wrote:

Abortion: ...

Did that make you pro or against abortion in cases of rape/incest?

Against.

While I understand that your viewpoint is fairly common, if say a high school girl is raped and becomes pregnant why should she be forced to carry this baby to full-term and drop out of school to do so ruining her life? It's not like she chose to be raped.

That all said, while I'm pro-choice, I don't at all think that people should be able to get abortions at something insane like 8 months. I also think there should be a limit - after X number of abortions you get sterilized or something (well, that might be a little too extreme :haha: ). I mean bad things might happen, but they shouldn't happen constantly.

bobrob2004 wrote:

There will be no stopping 2 ladies or 2 men to legally "unite" just so the other one could have health care. There is already enough of that going on between a man and a woman, why encourage more of it?

Why not outlaw marriage or unions between everyone? That would stop people from taking advantage of health care benefits. Besides, a lot of times both partners in a would-be gay marriage have well-paying jobs that provide healthcare. Why should they be denied marriage when there's a straight couple where only one of them is receiving any types of benefits?

Another argument I've heard is that the point of marriage is to produce children. As sexual minorities cannot reproduce, they should not be married. My question is should sterile heterosexual individuals be prohibited from marriage as well? Certainly they won't be reproducing either.

catbox_9 wrote:

bobrob2004 wrote:

catbox_9 wrote:

bobrob2004 wrote:

Abortion: ...

Did that make you pro or against abortion in cases of rape/incest?

Against.

While I understand that your viewpoint is fairly common, if say a high school girl is raped and becomes pregnant why should she be forced to carry this baby to full-term and drop out of school to do so ruining her life? It's not like she chose to be raped.

That all said, while I'm pro-choice, I don't at all think that people should be able to get abortions at something insane like 8 months. I also think there should be a limit - after X number of abortions you get sterilized or something (well, that might be a little too extreme :haha: ). I mean bad things might happen, but they shouldn't happen constantly.

The baby didn't have a choice either.

That's true, too. What about the use of a morning after pill? Since it takes several days for implantation to take place, a morning after pill doesn't actually abort a fetus - it just makes it impossible for there to be one to begin with. If a woman is raped and on top of things she could get this pill and not have to worry about getting pregnant. Of course there's a lot of controversy with this pill, too since it's kind of a gray area I guess.

-----

Another question for everyone is what are your thoughts if the baby has anecephaly...in other words the developing baby doesn't have most of its skull or brain. These babies are usually born stillborn and if they aren't they'll die within a day.