2008 Presidential Election Thread

catbox_9 wrote:

bobrob2004 wrote:

Sarah Palin is not a very good debater.

I just watched a few minutes worth on Yahoo and I'll say this...I really didn't like how informal Sarah Palin acted. While it is somewhat refreshing to have someone that seems fun, it's not a fun job - it's serious. Saying things like "dog-gonnit" and "I want to give a shout out to (some elementary school) and they all get extra credit for watching" is not really what I want to hear from a vice-Presidential candidate during a debate.

Yeah, that's what I was referring to. At the very beginning she seemed nervous as hell, and might have started saying those things to calm her down. But I think it totally backfired on her. Whether she had her facts right or wrong is irrelevant. She didn't really present herself all too well.

Oh, and speaking of the facts, both of them were pretty much wrong on some of them. As far as factually, it was a tie. But the edge goes to Biden on presentation.

This is what I think of the debate


and

Just a quick thought on tonight's debate. I don't think this debate did anything significant to swing your vote one way or the other. If you're a McCain supporter, you're probably still be a McCain supporter after this debate and same with Obama. Neither candidate did anything special. It was as much of a tie as I've ever seen.

And one thing I didn't understand. Why was McCain trying to promote a plan that is already in effect in the bailout plan?

One more debate before election on Wednesday, 10/15.

I still say let Bush be President for another four years

I didn't watch the debate so I can't say who won, but according to the writers for Time, Obama gets a B+ and McCain gets a B so it's basically a tie.

Since gay marriage and other issues regarding sexual minorities seems to be a popular topic in this thread, here's an article I stumbled on...

Palin Church Promotes Converting Gays
The Associated Press

ANCHORAGE, Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin's church is promoting a conference that promises to convert gays into heterosexuals through the power of prayer.


"You'll be encouraged by the power of God's love and His desire to transform the lives of those impacted by homosexuality, ' according to the insert in the bulletin of the Wasilla Bible Church, where Palin has prayed for about six years.


Palin's conservative Christian views have energized that part of the GOP electorate, which was lukewarm to John McCain's candidacy before he named her as his vice presidential choice. She is staunchly anti-abortion, opposing exceptions for rape and incest, and opposes gay marriage and spousal rights for gay couples.


Focus on the Family, a national Christian fundamentalist organization, is conducting the "Love Won Out" Conference in Anchorage, about 30 miles from Wasilla.


Palin, campaigning with McCain in the Midwest on Friday, has not publicly expressed a view on the so-called "pray away the gay" movement. Larry Kroon, senior pastor at Palin's church, was not available to discuss the matter Friday, said a church worker who declined to give her name.


Gay activists in Alaska said Palin has not worked actively against their interests, but early in her administration she supported a bill to overrule a court decision to block state benefits for gay partners of public employees. At the time, less than one-half of 1 percent of state employees had applied for the benefits, which were ordered by a 2005 ruling by the Alaska Supreme Court.


Palin reversed her position and vetoed the bill after the state attorney general said it was unconstitutional. But her reluctant support didn't win fans among Alaska's gay population, said Scott Turner, a gay activist in Anchorage.


"Less than 1 percent of state employees would even apply for benefits, so why make a big deal out of such a small number?" he said.


"I think gay Republicans are going to run away' if Palin supports efforts like the prayers to convert gays, said Wayne Besen, founder of the New York-based Truth Wins Out, a gay rights advocacy group. Besen called on Palin to publicly express her views now that she's a vice presidential nominee.


"People are looking at Sarah Palin as someone who might feasibly be in the White House," he said.

-----------------------------------

Yeah, that'll work real well

gs78 wrote:

I still say let Bush be President for another four years

no . we need a new president

Yeah but these candidates suck.

I'll be writin' in another candidate fo sho

gdennis59 wrote:

Yeah but these candidates suck.

That's why they should let Bush stay for a third term

laprimamirala wrote:

I'll be writin' in another candidate fo sho

Ron Paul?

Sorry folks, God can do anything through prayer, you Catholics, as well as other church groups should know that!

Many times the Gay person does not want to be Gay and it has been proven over and over again that, through the power of prayer, to an all powerful God, the Gay person who gives this problem to God has had the homosexual desire reversed by God! Thousands upon thousands have been helped by God.

Nowhere does the article say they are praying away the Gay desire of those who do not desire to change! I praise the church for doing what God desires! We are to love the Gay person, but hate the sin! And to God, homosexuality is a sin, an abomination to Him. It is not the way God created humans.

Quote :

“You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination” (Leviticus 18:22; see also Leviticus 20:13).

And the standards God desires (sin) has not changed from Old Testament to New Testament beliefs. Yes, we are under grace now, and not Law... but what was sin to God then, is still sin to God now, we can repent and be forgiven or healed today.

To hear from one lady who was gay for 20 years, and was healed by prayer see
Jesus set me Free from Homosexuality

Many times the homosexual desire has come from dysfunctional family situations, genetic problems (hormone imbalances) among other things. And God has been known to heal these mental and physical disturbances to a person.

Also, Biden and Palin have the same belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. Plus, one of thethe Republican planks says the same. This is nothing new, they basically stand for the same things that America was founded on.... and that is Judeo-Christian values. They don't force gays to change, but they accept them as they are.

If you are going to mudsling against Palin's beliefs, you better look at Obama's wierd, biblically twisted teachings he sat under for over 20 years!

Quote :

If you are going to mudsling against Palin's beliefs, you better look at Obama's wierd, biblically twisted teachings he sat under for over 20 years!

Amen to that!!!! Not to mention his affiliation with a psycho domestic terrorist! What a scum bag! lol

GoGetEmTigers wrote:

Sorry folks, God can do anything through prayer, you Catholics, as well as other church groups should know that!

Many times the Gay person does not want to be Gay and it has been proven over and over again that, through the power of prayer, to an all powerful God, the Gay person who gives this problem to God has had the homosexual desire reversed by God! Thousands upon thousands have been helped by God.

Nowhere does the article say they are praying away the Gay desire of those who do not desire to change! I praise the church for doing what God desires! We are to love the Gay person, but hate the sin! And to God, homosexuality is a sin, an abomination to Him. It is not the way God created humans.

Quote :

“You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination” (Leviticus 18:22; see also Leviticus 20:13).

And the standards God desires (sin) has not changed from Old Testament to New Testament beliefs. Yes, we are under grace now, and not Law... but what was sin to God then, is still sin to God now, we can repent and be forgiven or healed today.

To hear from one lady who was gay for 20 years, and was healed by prayer see
Jesus set me Free from Homosexuality

Many times the homosexual desire has come from dysfunctional family situations, genetic problems (hormone imbalances) among other things. And God has been known to heal these mental and physical disturbances to a person.

Also, Biden and Palin have the same belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. Plus, one of thethe Republican planks says the same. This is nothing new, they basically stand for the same things that America was founded on.... and that is Judeo-Christian values. They don't force gays to change, but they accept them as they are.

If you are going to mudsling against Palin's beliefs, you better look at Obama's wierd, biblically twisted teachings he sat under for over 20 years!

Thank You GoGetEm!

Ohios#1TigerFan wrote:

Quote :

If you are going to mudsling against Palin's beliefs, you better look at Obama's wierd, biblically twisted teachings he sat under for over 20 years!

Amen to that!!!! Not to mention his affiliation with a psycho domestic terrorist! What a scum bag! lol

Obama is the real face of evil


Muslims around the world can't wait for him to be President


And he will because the liberal media has fooled the public and censored the real truth

GoGetEmTigers wrote:

Sorry folks, God can do anything through prayer, you Catholics, as well as other church groups should know that!

As a former Catholic, I do know that.

gs78 wrote:

Ohios#1TigerFan wrote:

Quote :

If you are going to mudsling against Palin's beliefs, you better look at Obama's wierd, biblically twisted teachings he sat under for over 20 years!

Amen to that!!!! Not to mention his affiliation with a psycho domestic terrorist! What a scum bag! lol

Obama is the real face of evil


Muslims around the world can't wait for him to be President


And he will because the liberal media has fooled the public and censored the real truth

GS,

1. I don't know if he is the real face of evil, as many church groups do believe, but his socialist beliefs are far from the beliefs that the founding fathers desired for this nation! We looked at the Soviet empire as the evil empire, and the far left Liberal beliefs are down right socialism, the same as the USSR. But that does not qualify as him "being evil." I see him more as highly misguided by his associations with Ayers and Rev Wright.

2. If Obama at one time embraced the Muslim teaching of his Muslim father, and now is a Christian... the Muslim teaching is that he be put to death for turning his back on his religion. Then the muslim world would hate him! If he is still a closet Muslim, God help us! In his book he has indicated the if needed, he had no problem turning America into a Muslim nation. Take from that what you want.

3. Many networks will not even talk about many of his beliefs. You are correct there. As of tonight I heard that the Democratic party is investigating Obama's real location of birth. He says he was born in Hawaii, but the Democrat investigators CAN NOT FIND A RECORD OF HIS BIRTH THERE. They are starting to wonder if he is even a US born citizen! I can't wait to hear the result of this investigation! If he is not a US born citizen, then he does not qualify for President.

To see why many of us are turned off by this man, see the following video!

Concerning the birth cert. of Obama, here is the court order for Obama to prove he was born here, since nobody can find his birth cert.

Read from the court document

And the birth cert provided earlier, by Obama is suspected as fake, leading to this court order!

Unsolved Mystery; Obama's Birth Certificate

surprising Fox News is not on this!

laprimamirala wrote:

surprising Fox News is not on this!

Thank You GOGETEM


The reason why this is not news is because the Liberal News Media is in cohoots with Obama and his radical Black Muslim Friends.

They hate the Republican Party[ Mainly because of Bush] so much they will cover up the truth; Even if by doing so; it turns the United States into a Socialist, Communist Islamic Republic.

It is a rotten shame!


But there is going to be bloodshed in this nation;


Because there is no way in hell that Christians, Jews and Conservative and Moderate Whites are gonna let these radical Black and Islamics run this country into the ground.


Don't be shocked if someone doesn't kill Obama if he becomes President and his radical allies.

GoGetEmTigers wrote:

Sorry folks, God can do anything through prayer, you Catholics, as well as other church groups should know that!

Many times the Gay person does not want to be Gay and it has been proven over and over again that, through the power of prayer, to an all powerful God, the Gay person who gives this problem to God has had the homosexual desire reversed by God!.....

As an agnostic, I prefer to cite scientific studies...

American medical organizations have have expressed concerns over potential harms of attempts to change sexual orientation through therapy....
"Just the Facts About Sexual Orientation & Youth: A Primer for Principals, Educators and School Personnel". American Academy of Pediatrics, American Counseling Association, American Association of School Administrators, American Federation of Teachers, American Psychological Association, American School Health Association, The Interfaith Alliance, National Association of School Psychologists, National Association of Social Workers, National Education Association (1999).

The U.S. Surgeon General stated that that "there is no valid scientific evidence that sexual orientation can be changed"

A 2002 peer-reviewed study found that 88% of participants failed to achieve a sustained change in their sexual behavior and 3% reported changing their orientation to heterosexual. The remainder reported either losing all sexual drive or attempting to remain celibate, with no change in attraction.....

Shidlo, Ariel; Schroeder, Michael; Drescher, Jack (2001). Sexual Conversion Therapy: Ethical, Clinical, and Research Perspectives. New York: Haworth Medical Press.

No mainstream medical organization endorses conversion therapy. Many organizations have expressed concerns over its practice

The APA has stated that conversion therapy is "certainly discredited" Norcross, John C.; Koocher, Gerald P.; Garofalo, Ariele (October 2006). "Discredited Psychological Treatments and Tests: A Delphi Poll". Professional Psychology: Research and Practice 37 (5): 512–522.

The following organizations are critical of conversion thereapy:

• American Medical Association
  
• American Psychiatric Association
  
• American Psychological Association
  
• American Counseling Organization
  
• National Association of Social Workers
  
• American Academy of Pediatrics
  
• American Association of School Administrators
  
• the American Federation of Teachers
  
• National Association of School Psychologists
  
• American Academy of Physician Assistants
  
• National Education Association
  

The American Psychiatric Association has stated that "anecdotal reports of 'cures' are counterbalanced by anecdotal claims of psychological harm.".

The "potential risks of 'reparative therapy' are great, including depression, anxiety, and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by a patient.

A statistically significant percent of patients report being worse after therapy than before. Nicolosi, Joseph; Byrd, A. Dean; Potts, Richard W. (June 2000). "Retrospective self-reports of changes in homosexual orientation: A consumer survey of conversion therapy clients" 86: 1071–1088. Psychological Reports.

-----------------------------

I suppose I've made my point.

Thank You GoGetEm!! Outstanding videos! I always had a hunch there was something else missing..now we know!

GoGetEmTigers wrote:

Quote :

“You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination” (Leviticus 18:22; see also Leviticus 20:13).

If homosexuality is the clear reason for God’s judgment on Sodom and Gomorroah, why doesn’t the writer of Genesis state it clearly as such?

Quote :

Now this is the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not
help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable
things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. Ezekiel 49-50.

This passage says nothing about sexual acts of any kind as the reason for the destruction, but does specifically outline arrogance and a lack of concern for the needs of others as the reason. The passage clearly teaches that inhospitable acts were the key reasons for God’s judgment.

Another passage....

Quote :

There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are detestable
to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into
evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up
dissension among brothers. Proverbs 6:16-19

This passage makes no mention of homosexuality.

In Matthew, Jesus talks about the people of Sodom indirectly and further states that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of inhospitable acts...

Quote :

Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom - both young and old - surrounded the house. Genesis 19:4

The key word in this passage is of course "men". Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of anything would also realize that Genesis was not written in English, but rather Hebrew. In Hebrew, the word used for "men" in this passage is "enoshe" which is not gender specific. If the author intended to refer to men, why did the author not instead use "esh" which is gender specific.

Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 are the traditional condemnation passages against homosexual acts and appear in our modern translations to be clear cut prohibitions. Some have said these passages would justify capital punishment of homosexuals. Would these people also bring the same judgment against adulterers (Leviticus 20:10)? Following suite, they would also have to prescribe the death penalty for their stubborn and rebellious sons (Deuteronomy 21:18-21). One thing is clear from Paul’s teaching: anyone who puts themselves under any one point of the Law obligates themselves to keep the whole Law (Galatians 5:3) or they are worthy of death.

--------------------------------

Back to your original passage, Leviticus 18:22, a common translation reads "You must not sleep the sleep of a woman with a man; it is ritually impure" this prohibition cannot be a blanket condemnation of homosexuality, because the writer uses the Hebrew word toevah referring to the act as being “detestable” or an “abomination”. The Hebrews used special words to condemn specific wicked or abominable misdeeds. If this passage had been referring to sexual misconduct, the writer would have used the word zimmah instead.


-------------------------------

Of course we're all free to believe whatever we want. As for homosexual rights in this country, there is no reason why everyone should not have the same rights, gay or straight....

Clearly religion should have no impact on law:

Quote :

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
-Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution

.

And of course everyone should be treated equally:

Quote :

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
-United States Declaration of Independence

GoGetEmTigers wrote:

2. If Obama at one time embraced the Muslim teaching of his Muslim father, and now is a Christian... the Muslim teaching is that he be put to death for turning his back on his religion.

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods, do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."
(Deuteronomy 13:6-9)

"And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, ...and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."
(Deuteronomy 17:3-5)

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
(Hebrews 6:4-6)

"or if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
(2 Peter 2:20-22)

It appears no Western religion is all that fond of apostasy, not just the Islams.

Lawsuit Filed Against Obama Claims He's Not Eligible for the Presidency
The Cleveland Leader: August 23, 2008 - 12:06pm.

Philip J. Berg, Esquire, of Pennsylvania filed a lawsuit on Thursday seeking a Declaratory Judgement and Injunction that Barack Obama does not meet the qualifications to become President of the United States. In the lawsuit Berg alleges that Obama is not eligible for the presidency because he is not a naturalized citizen, and/or lost his citizenship when he was adopted in Indonesia, and/or has duel citizenship with Kenya and Indonesia.

Berg said that he has filed the suit on behalf of the Democratic Party and citizens of the United States for their best interests. Berg, an attorney with offices in Montgomery County, PA and an active practice in Philadelphia, filed the lawsuit, Berg vs. Obama, Civil Action No. 08-cv-4083, in Federal Court.

In the filing Berg says:

There have been numerous questions raised about Obama’s background with no satisfactory answers. The questions that I have addressed include, but are not limited to:

1. Where was Obama born? Hawaii; an island off of Hawaii; Kenya; Canada; or ?

2. Was he a citizen of Kenya, Indonesia and/or Canada?

3. What was the early childhood of Obama in Hawaii; in Kenya; in Indonesia when he was adopted; and later, back to Hawaii?

4. An explanation as to the various names utilized by Obama that include: Barack Hussein Obama; Barry Soetoro; Barry Obama; Barack Dunham; and Barry Dunham.

5. Illinois Bar Application – Obama fails to acknowledge use of names other than Barack Hussein Obama, a blatant lie.

If Obama can prove U.S. citizenship, we still have the issue of muti-citizenship with responsibilities owed to and allegance to other countries.

Berg goes on to make very direct accusations against Obama, stating that he "lied and cheated his way into a fraudulent candidacy and cheated legitimately eligible natural born citizens from competing in a fair process."

Interestingly, Obama isn't the only one who's citizenship has been questioned in this election. John McCain's citizenship was also questioned because he was born on a military base in the Panama Canal Zone, which is not a US territory.

The full court filings and claims can be found at ObamaCrimes.com, Berg's website. Philip J. Berg is the former Deputy Attorney General of Pennsylvania, former candidate for Govenor and US Senate in Democratic Primaries, former Chair of the Democratic Party in Montgomery County, and former member of the Democratic State Commitee.

This filing comes less than two weeks after an AP photo was revealed of the school register of a child then known as Barry Soetoro, now known as Barack Hussein Obama, whose citizenship was listed as "Indonesian" and whose religion was listed as "Islam." the photo strongly contradicts the Obama camp's claim that he was not a Muslim, and is said to confirm he is a national of at least one other country. The AP has confirmed the authenticity of the photograph.

I can't understand how Obama could've gotten this far in the Presidential election if he's ineligible.

The difference between Islam and Judaism and Christianity is that in Islam they still do practice the death practices for people who turn from Islam, whereas Jews and Christians do not.

[quote="catbox_9"]"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods, do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."
(Deuteronomy 13:6-9)

"And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, ...and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."
(Deuteronomy 17:3-5)[/quote]

Happened in old times, not today. And I agree, Islam was not the only belief system to practice this.

[quote="catbox_9"]"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
(Hebrews 6:4-6)[/quote]

This is not an indicator of death by humans but a falling away from faith. It does not indicate they be killed.

[quote="catbox_9"]"or if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
(2 Peter 2:20-22)[/quote]

Again not an indicator of physical death to the offender. It indicates that to be a follower of Christ, but to turn away from the teachings, makes it VERY HARD for a person to return again. God does allow the person to ask for forgiveness again, and return to Him, but normally, human pride will keep the person from returning.

The whole point is that, in many of today's Muslim groups, an apostate person IS STILL PUT TO DEATH. I just pray this is not Obama's situation.