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 GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET

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rickimouse
TG
gs78
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TG
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Detroit Tiger
TG


Female
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GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET   GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Icon_minipostedMon Sep 01, 2008 4:07 pm

I have to leave in a few minutes Frown
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laprimamirala
Detroit Tiger
Detroit Tiger
laprimamirala


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PostSubject: Re: GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET   GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Icon_minipostedMon Sep 01, 2008 4:09 pm

Sorry! You back in school this week?
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TG
Detroit Tiger
Detroit Tiger
TG


Female
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GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET   GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Icon_minipostedMon Sep 01, 2008 4:09 pm

I start tomorrow Frown But I have to go to my dad's friend's house for dinner and stuff right now. Wave
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laprimamirala
Detroit Tiger
Detroit Tiger
laprimamirala


Female
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GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET   GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Icon_minipostedMon Sep 01, 2008 4:15 pm

Here's to a good year for ya, kiddo. I know a new school is tough...but just be yourself and one day at a time, okay?
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gdennis59
Detroit Tiger
Detroit Tiger
gdennis59


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PostSubject: Re: GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET   GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Icon_minipostedMon Sep 01, 2008 4:38 pm

Score?
Anyone doing updates?
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bobrob2004
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Detroit Tiger

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bobrob2004


Male
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GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET   GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Icon_minipostedMon Sep 01, 2008 4:42 pm

13-9.

grouch Derek Jeter
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laprimamirala
Detroit Tiger
Detroit Tiger
laprimamirala


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GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Empty
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grouch pudge
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gdennis59
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Detroit Tiger
gdennis59


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GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET   GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Icon_minipostedMon Sep 01, 2008 4:48 pm

Damn.
What Inning? and How did Justin do?
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catbox_9
DTF1 ADMINISTRATOR Detroit Tiger
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catbox_9


Male
Number of posts : 22295
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Favorite Current Tiger(s) : Justin Verlander
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GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET   GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Icon_minipostedMon Sep 01, 2008 4:49 pm

6th inning. Verlander wasn't bad.
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gdennis59
Detroit Tiger
Detroit Tiger
gdennis59


Male
Number of posts : 7415
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GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET   GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Icon_minipostedMon Sep 01, 2008 4:50 pm

So Wait, whos winning?
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catbox_9
DTF1 ADMINISTRATOR Detroit Tiger
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catbox_9


Male
Number of posts : 22295
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Favorite Current Tiger(s) : Justin Verlander
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PostSubject: Re: GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET   GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Icon_minipostedMon Sep 01, 2008 4:50 pm

catbox_9 wrote:
Verlander wasn't bad.

Yeah, more like terrible - 1.2 IP, 7R(5ER)
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catbox_9
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catbox_9


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GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET   GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Icon_minipostedMon Sep 01, 2008 4:50 pm

Yankees lead 13-9
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gdennis59
Detroit Tiger
Detroit Tiger
gdennis59


Male
Number of posts : 7415
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And what relievers got rocked?
Wait, I got it, Farnsworth?
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gdennis59
Detroit Tiger
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gdennis59


Male
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Registration date : 2008-03-25

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No more updates?
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bobrob2004
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bobrob2004


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Update:

Game over. Yankees: 13, Tigers: 9
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laprimamirala
Detroit Tiger
Detroit Tiger
laprimamirala


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confused at least it wasn't 11-2 like it was!
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GoGetEmTigers
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September 1, 2008

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Trans R H E
NY Yankees
4
4
3
0
0
2
0
0
0
13 17 1
Detroit
1
1
0
6
1
0
0
0
0
9 13 3

NY YankeesAB-R--H--RBI-BB-SO-LOB-AVG
Damon, CF4331200.316
Jeter, SS3322300.296
Abreu, RF5231112.302
Rodriguez, A, 3B6234003.309
Giambi, 1B4001116.249
- Ransom, 1B0000000.600
Nady, LF5012022.322
Matsui, DH5022013.304
Cano, 2B5110003.268
Rodriguez, I, C5220010.281
Totals421317137619

BATTING
HR: Damon (12, 2nd inning off Verlander, 0 on, 1 out).
TB: Damon 6; Jeter 2; Abreu 3; Rodriguez, A 3; Nady; Matsui 2; Cano; Rodriguez, I 2.
RBI: Rodriguez, A 4 (85), Giambi (85), Matsui 2 (42), Damon (58), Nady 2 (82), Abreu (84), Jeter 2 (62).
2-out RBI: Matsui 2; Nady; Jeter 2.
Runners left in scoring position, 2 out: Cano; Matsui; Rodriguez, A 2; Abreu.
SF: Giambi; Nady.
GIDP: Matsui.
Team LOB: 11.

BASERUNNING
SB: Abreu (16, 2nd base off Verlander/Inge).

FIELDING
E: Cano (13, fielding).


DetroitAB-R-H--RBI-BB-SO-LOB-AVG
Granderson, CF4320211.302
Polanco, 2B6110005.309
Ordonez, RF4033003.313
Cabrera, 1B5112014.288
Joyce, LF3000123.270
- a-Raburn, PH-LF1000000.248
Sheffield, DH4111110.224
Larish, 3B5120022.229
Inge, C4112113.218
Santiago, SS4120111.322
Totals4091386922

a-Flied out for Joyce in the 8th.

BATTING
2B: Granderson (22, Ponson), Ordonez (27, Ponson).
HR:
Sheffield (14, 2nd inning off Ponson, 0 on, 0 out), Inge (11, 4th
inning off Ponson, 1 on, 0 out), Cabrera (30, 4th inning off Ramirez, 1
on, 1 out).
TB: Granderson 3; Polanco; Ordonez 4; Cabrera 4; Sheffield 4; Larish 2; Inge 4; Santiago 2.
RBI: Ordonez 3 (81), Sheffield (44), Inge 2 (44), Cabrera 2 (106).
Runners left in scoring position, 2 out: Joyce 2; Ordonez 2; Inge; Santiago; Cabrera; Polanco.
SF: Ordonez.
Team LOB: 11.

BASERUNNING
SB: Inge (2, 2nd base off Bruney/Rodriguez, I).

FIELDING
E: Granderson (4, fielding), Larish 2 (2, fielding, throw).
DP: (Santiago-Polanco-Cabrera).


NY YankeesIP--H-R-ER-BB-SO-HR-ERA
Ponson 3.09761125.13
Ramirez 1.12223113.68
Bruney (W, 2-0)1.21001302.42
Coke 1.01000200.00
Marte 1.00000204.25
Britton 1.00001003.78

DetroitIP--H-R-ER-BB-SO-HR-ERA
Verlander (L, 10-15)1.27852214.74
Seay 0.14331003.74
Lopez 3.24221303.92
Dolsi 2.02003103.76
Fossum 1.10000005.13

Ponson pitched to 5 batters in the 4th.
Seay pitched to 4 batters in the 3rd.

WP: Coke.
Pitches-strikes:
Ponson 76-43, Ramirez 40-22, Bruney 30-14, Coke 20-12, Marte 18-10,
Britton 18-9, Verlander 64-39, Seay 26-17, Lopez 42-32, Dolsi 48-25,
Fossum 12-9.
Groundouts-flyouts: Ponson 5-3, Ramirez 0-3,
Bruney 0-2, Coke 0-1, Marte 0-1, Britton 1-2, Verlander 0-3, Seay 1-0,
Lopez 3-5, Dolsi 5-0, Fossum 3-1.
Batters faced: Ponson 20, Ramirez 9, Bruney 7, Coke 4, Marte 3, Britton 4, Verlander 15, Seay 6, Lopez 16, Dolsi 10, Fossum 4.
Inherited runners-scored: Ramirez 2-2, Bruney 2-1, Seay 2-1, Lopez 3-2, Dolsi 3-2, Fossum 2-0.
Umpires: HP: Chuck Meriwether. 1B: Bill Welke. 2B: Chris Guccione. 3B: Tim Welke.
Weather: 86 degrees, sunny.
Wind: 5 mph, In from LF.
T: 3:46.
Att: 44,336.
September 1, 2008
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TG
Detroit Tiger
Detroit Tiger
TG


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GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Empty
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I somehow got to turn on the game while I was at a party. Of course, they where playing drinking games so they really didn't care what I did. So I got to listen to the game Frown
It sucks we lost but at least we didn't get completely killed.
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NY Yankees Top 1st
- UMPIRES: Home,Chuck Meriwether; First, Bill Welke; Second, Chris Guccione; Third, Tim Welke;
- Johnny Damon walked. Runner on first with none out and Derek Jeter due up.
- Derek Jeter walked. Runners on first and second with none out and Bobby Abreu due up.
- Bobby Abreu singled to right. Bases loaded with none out and Alex Rodriguez due up.
- Alex Rodriguez singled to center scoring Johnny Damon and Derek Jeter. Runners on first and third with none out and Jason Giambi due up.
- Jason Giambi sacrifice fly to left scoring Bobby Abreu. Runner on second with one out and Xavier Nady due up.
- Xavier Nady struck out swinging. Runner on second with two outs and Hideki Matsui due up.
- Hideki Matsui singled to center scoring Alex Rodriguez. Runner on first with two outs and Robinson Cano due up.
- Robinson Cano lined out to left to end the inning.

Detroit Bottom 1st
- Pitchers confirmed.
- Curtis Granderson doubled to right. Runner on second with none out and Placido Polanco due up.
- Placido Polanco grounded out catcher to first. Runner on third with one out and Magglio Ordonez due up.
- Magglio Ordonez doubled to left scoring Curtis Granderson. Runner on second with one out and Miguel Cabrera due up.
- Miguel Cabrera grounded out second to first. Runner on third with two outs and Matt Joyce due up.
- Matt Joyce grounded out to first to end the inning.

NY Yankees Top 2nd
- Ivan Rodriguez struck out swinging. None on with one out and Johnny Damon due up.
- Johnny Damon one-out, solo Home Run (12) to right. Derek Jeter due up.
- Derek Jeter singled to center. Runner on first with one out and Bobby Abreu due up.
- Bobby Abreu singled to center. On the play, Derek Jeter advances to third on Curtis Granderson`s fielding error. Runners on first and third with one out and Alex Rodriguez due up.
- Bobby Abreu stole second. Runners on second and third with one out and Alex Rodriguez at the plate.
- Alex Rodriguez reached first on Jeff Larish`s fielding error scoring Derek Jeter. Runners on first and second with one out and Jason Giambi due up.
- Jason Giambi flied out to center. Runners on first and third and with two outs and Xavier Nady due up.
- Xavier Nady singled to left scoring Bobby Abreu. Runners on first and second with two outs and Hideki Matsui due up.
- Bobby Seay enters the game for the Tigers with runners on first and second with two outs.
- Hideki Matsui singled to right scoring Alex Rodriguez. Runners on first and third with two outs and Robinson Cano due up.
- Robinson Cano grounded out to first to end the inning.

Detroit Bottom 2nd
- Gary Sheffield lead-off Home Run (14) to left center. Jeff Larish due up.
- Jeff Larish singled to left. Runner on first with none out and Brandon Inge due up.
- Brandon Inge flied out to left. Runner on first with one out and Ramon Santiago due up.
- Ramon Santiago singled to center. Runners on first and second with one out and Curtis Granderson due up.
- Curtis Granderson infield single to second. Bases loaded with one out and Placido Polanco due up.
- Placido Polanco popped out to short. Bases loaded with two outs and Magglio Ordonez due up.
- Magglio Ordonez flied out to left to end the inning.

NY Yankees Top 3rd
- Ivan Rodriguez singled to left. Runner on first with none out and Johnny Damon due up.
- Johnny Damon singled to right. Runners on first and second with none out and Derek Jeter due up.
- Derek Jeter walked. Bases loaded with none out and Bobby Abreu due up.
- Bobby Abreu singled to left scoring Ivan Rodriguez. Bases loaded with none out and Alex Rodriguez due up.
- Aquilino Lopez enters the game for the Tigers with the bases loaded and none out.
- Alex Rodriguez singled to left scoring Johnny Damon. Bases loaded with none out and Jason Giambi due up.
- Jason Giambi flied out to left. Bases loaded with one out and Xavier Nady due up.
- Xavier Nady sacrifice fly to left scoring Derek Jeter. Runners on first and second and with two outs and Hideki Matsui due up.
- Hideki Matsui struck out swinging to end the inning.

Detroit Bottom 3rd
- Miguel Cabrera grounded out short to first. None on with one out and Matt Joyce due up.
- Matt Joyce struck out swinging. None on with two outs and Gary Sheffield due up.
- Gary Sheffield grounded out second to first to end the inning.

NY Yankees Top 4th
- Robinson Cano flied out to center. None on with one out and Ivan Rodriguez due up.
- Ivan Rodriguez flied out to right. None on with two outs and Johnny Damon due up.
- Johnny Damon flied out to right to end the inning.

Detroit Bottom 4th
- Jeff Larish infield single off the pitcher. Runner on first with none out and Brandon Inge due up.
- Brandon Inge none-out, two-run Home Run (11) to left scoring Jeff Larish. Ramon Santiago due up.
- Ramon Santiago singled to left. Runner on first with none out and Curtis Granderson due up.
- Curtis Granderson walked. Runners on first and second with none out and Placido Polanco due up.
- Placido Polanco reached first on Robinson Cano`s fielding error scoring Ramon Santiago. Runners on first and third with none out and Magglio Ordonez due up.
- Edwar Ramirez enters the game for the Yankees with runners on first and third with none out.
- Magglio Ordonez sacrifice fly to right scoring Curtis Granderson. Runner on first with one out and Miguel Cabrera due up.
- Miguel Cabrera one-out, two-run Home Run (30) to right scoring Placido Polanco. Matt Joyce due up.
- Matt Joyce walked. Runner on first with one out and Gary Sheffield due up.
- Gary Sheffield walked. Runners on first and second with one out and Jeff Larish due up.
- Jeff Larish popped out to short. Runners on first and second and with two outs and Brandon Inge due up.
- Brandon Inge struck out swinging to end the inning.

NY Yankees Top 5th
- Derek Jeter grounded out short to first. None on with one out and Bobby Abreu due up.
- Bobby Abreu struck out swinging. None on with two outs and Alex Rodriguez due up.
- Alex Rodriguez infield single to third. Runner on first with two outs and Jason Giambi due up.
- Jason Giambi struck out swinging to end the inning.

Detroit Bottom 5th
- Ramon Santiago lined out to right. None on with one out and Curtis Granderson due up.
- Curtis Granderson walked. Runner on first with one out and Placido Polanco due up.
- Placido Polanco singled to left. Runners on first and second with one out and Magglio Ordonez due up.
- Brian Bruney enters the game for the Yankees with runners on first and second with one out.
- Magglio Ordonez singled to left scoring Curtis Granderson. Runners on first and second with one out and Miguel Cabrera due up.
- Miguel Cabrera popped out to catcher. Runners on first and second and with two outs and Matt Joyce due up.
- Matt Joyce struck out swinging to end the inning.

NY Yankees Top 6th
- Xavier Nady grounded out third to first. None on with one out and Hideki Matsui due up.
- Hideki Matsui grounded out short to first. None on with two outs and Robinson Cano due up.
- Robinson Cano singled to center. Runner on first with two outs and Ivan Rodriguez due up.
- Ivan Rodriguez infield single to third. Rodriguez advances to second on Jeff Larish`s throwing error. Runners on second and third with two outs and Johnny Damon due up.
- Johnny Damon walked. Bases loaded with two outs and Derek Jeter due up.
- Freddy Dolsi enters the game for the Tigers with the bases loaded and two outs.
- Derek Jeter singled to right scoring Robinson Cano and Ivan Rodriguez. Runners on first and third with two outs and Bobby Abreu due up.
- Bobby Abreu walked. Bases loaded with two outs and Alex Rodriguez due up.
- Alex Rodriguez grounded out third to first to end the inning.

Detroit Bottom 6th
- Gary Sheffield flied out to left. None on with one out and Jeff Larish due up.
- Jeff Larish struck out swinging. None on with two outs and Brandon Inge due up.
- Brandon Inge walked. Runner on first with two outs and Ramon Santiago due up.
- Brandon Inge stole second. Runner on second with two outs and Ramon Santiago at the plate.
- Ramon Santiago struck out looking to end the inning.

NY Yankees Top 7th
- Jason Giambi walked. Runner on first with none out and Xavier Nady due up.
- Xavier Nady struck out swinging. Runner on first with one out and Hideki Matsui due up.
- Hideki Matsui grounded into a double play, short to second to first to end the inning.

Detroit Bottom 7th
- Phil Coke starts the inning for the Yankees.
- Curtis Granderson struck out swinging. None on with one out and Placido Polanco due up.
- Placido Polanco fouled out to first. None on with two outs and Magglio Ordonez due up.
- Magglio Ordonez singled to right. Runner on first with two outs and Miguel Cabrera due up.
- Magglio Ordonez advances to second on a Phil Coke wild pitch. Runner on second with two outs and Miguel Cabrera at the plate.
- Miguel Cabrera struck out swinging to end the inning.

NY Yankees Top 8th
- Robinson Cano grounded out short to first. None on with one out and Ivan Rodriguez due up.
- Ivan Rodriguez grounded out second to first. None on with two outs and Johnny Damon due up.
- Johnny Damon infield single to short. Runner on first with two outs and Derek Jeter due up.
- Derek Jeter walked. Runners on first and second with two outs and Bobby Abreu due up.
- Casey Fossum enters the game for the Tigers with runners on first and second and two outs.
- Bobby Abreu grounded into a fielder`s choice, second to short to end the inning.

Detroit Bottom 8th
- Damaso Marte starts the inning for the Yankees.
- Ryan Rayburn pinch-hitting for Matt Joyce.
- Pinch-Hitter Ryan Raburn flied out to center. None on with one out and Gary Sheffield due up.
- Gary Sheffield struck out looking. None on with two outs and Jeff Larish due up.
- Jeff Larish struck out swinging to end the inning.

NY Yankees Top 9th
- Ryan Raburn remains in the game to play left field.
- Alex Rodriguez flied out to right. None on with one out and Jason Giambi due up.
- Jason Giambi grounded out to first. None on with two outs and Xavier Nady due up.
- Xavier Nady grounded out short to first to end the inning.

Detroit Bottom 9th
- Chris Britton starts the inning for the Yankees.
- Cody Ransom is now playing first base, batting 5th.
- Brandon Inge grounded out third to first. None on with one out and Ramon Santiago due up.
- Ramon Santiago walked. Runner on first with one out and Curtis Granderson due up.
- Curtis Granderson flied out to center. Runner on first with two outs and Placido Polanco due up.
- Ramon Santiago advances to second on defensive indifference. Runner on second with two outs and Placido Polanco at the plate.
- Placido Polanco flied out to left to end the game.

NY Yankees 13, Detroit 9

Final
- Confirmed
- WP: B.Bruney (2-0); LP:J.Verlander (10-15).

NY Yankees 13, Detroit 9

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GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET   GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Icon_minipostedMon Sep 01, 2008 8:58 pm

TG wrote:
I somehow got to turn on the game while I was at a party. Of course, they where playing drinking games so they really didn't care what I did. So I got to listen to the game Frown
It sucks we lost but at least we didn't get completely killed.

Very true, but if the Tigers don't get rid of at least the pitch coach, I will not expect us to have good pitchers again for years!

Chucky has ruined J. Verlander :nate: and J. Bonderman
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GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET   GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Icon_minipostedMon Sep 01, 2008 9:00 pm

We still have Gala! And Lambert might be alright...
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GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET   GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Icon_minipostedMon Sep 01, 2008 9:09 pm

TG wrote:
We still have Gala! And Lambert might be alright...

Chuck is working with Gala. Neutral I just hope he does not mess him up. They should send the Mudhens coaches up to Detroit to help!!!
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GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET   GDT: 9/1/08 - DET (66-70) VS NYY (72-64) - 1:05 p.m. ET - Page 4 Icon_minipostedMon Sep 01, 2008 9:10 pm

Nod mudhens coaches seem to be better than the coaches we have now...
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